Some thoughts from Gordon Clason with my comments in italics (the first part of this was originally an email before getting permission to include it here)
I love your web site. I have just a few comments for your “thoughts” page, you may have already considered these.
1. Ash states in the beginning that her aim is to “go beyond the game”. At the end, she gets ready to shoot the ghost, presumably to enable a gate to a yet further level (several references to solo players being able to get “behind the fire wall” hint that this further level is unknown to the Bishop and the programmers of the game).
Watch out for being misled a little by the R1 English dub. That initial piece of Ash’s monologue is only in the R1 version, as is the idea of solos being able to penetrate the game in some manner
The ending refers back to the beginning with the line “welcome to Avalon”. Is this Oshii’s way of returning our attention to Ash’s stated intention of “going beyond the game”?
See above… that intention is unique to the R1 voiceover. I think what Oshii may be trying to do here is make us doubt our own reality by ending the film and welcoming us to the virtual reality.
Earlier in the movie the cherubs had a head shot off. At the end the cherubs are intact, but Ash is aiming a gun at the head about to shoot. Is there a temporal or chronological anomaly here? Is this scene earlier in time than the scene with the damaged statue?
Hard to say.. there are various ideas about this on the Thoughts page. I’ve not seen a theory I really believe yet.
2. Ash treats Stunner like she treats her dog. She feeds him while she drinks a beverage and watches him. The dog’s eating is sloppy, scattering rice on the floor. A big deal is made of Stunner’s sloppy eating. The dog doesn’t disappear until after Stunner has attached himself to Ash in a very canine-like way.
Yes – I think you’ve hit on the point here about Stunner’s eating.
Indications that the “real world” is virtual include: scene in hospital. Bishop uses a game-type weapon scope to watch her. And, of course the appearance of the ghost. scene in her apartment. The books (title on front cover in English, title on spine in Japanese, neither in Polish) are blank, and the dog disappears.
Yes – have a read of some of the Wizardry notes on the this page… the idea coming out of there is that the books don’t have to be read, but more in a classical adventure game mould the important thing is to “get book”, “read book”, “use keyboard” etc…
The dog is clearly part of the game. When he disappears from Ash’s apartment, he has gone on to “class real” because that’s where Ash finds him when she gets there.
The ghost only appears when there is a level 12 Bishop present. In the hospital “the Bishop” is there watching her. In “special A”, Murphy is there.
Good points!
Here’s Gordon’s reply, with newly added commentary
I understand what you mean about the English dub and Ash’s narration not being in the original Polish version, but I think this is Miramax’s way of summing up the anomalous urging of the Game Master, first to join a group, and later to avoid special A, even though he has also told her that she is beneficial to the game as a stabilizing influence. Why would the Game Master both encourage Ash and discourage her? This is explained by the narrative distinguishing between ordinary play and the presumption that special A is a glitch or area “behind the firewall”. It’s not a necessary explanation, but it is possible that this is the work of Neil Gaiman, certainly a man with enough insight and access to Oshii’s thinking to make some shrewd guesses.
It’s possible, though I’ve not seen any confirmation any of Neil’s ideas were used for the R1 version – he was originally hired to do a new subtitle version. I think (though would need to double check) that the idea of the stabilising influence is unique to R1 too.
By all means , use my thoughts any way you want. I have also just realized that there are two bishops at the hospital, since Murphy is there in a sense. Does the Polish version have the introductory written text about the unreturned and the illegality of the game? Or is that in the English language version only?
Yes, this is common to all versions. So far, every version I have seen (and that’s quite a few) has had identical visuals – it’s only the subtitling and the sound that may vary
Have you had the opportunity yet to see Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence? I saw it last week, and it’s remarkable. The same dog, of course, as you mention. The dog is used in a symbolic manner to establish Togusa’s humanity and reality at a time when Bateau has begun to wonder what is real and what is VR.
It hasn’t been released in the UK yet. The UK Premiere will be at the Leeds Film Festival in November. After that I’m hoping for a regular theatrical release.
I also think that the Bishop doesn’t expect the ghost to appear in special A because he has failed to take into account that Murphy is a bishop. This is why I think that when Ash kills the ghost again, she is going to open a gate to a level beyond anything the nine sisters are aware of, or at least beyond what the Bishop is aware Ash is capable of.
Interesting… as is common with this film, it’s hard to prove or disprove this idea (…which is why I generally put people’s thoughts here as originally written and just add commentary like this)
I also agree with the correspondent who compared this movie to The 13th Floor. In The 13th Floor there is the implicit awareness that final reality might not be the end, there might be yet more layers. In Avalon, there is some implication that Ash in going to find something beyond the third level of reality. Maybe I’m seeing implications that aren’t really there.
Another possibility I’ve considered is that Ash is a NPC and the audience is the player. In that case, the final “Welcome to Avalon” is a temporal loop that would have taken us back to the beginning of the movie if we allowed it to continue. A friend who watched this movie and Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence with me thinks that Ash is the only player in the movie, everyone else are NPC’s and the entire movie is within the game.
That’s not too far away from Xavier Amet’s take on the movie, which is one I also ascribe to.
All in all, it’s a lovely movie. Possibly the most thought provoking movies I’ve seen in a long time.
And one further thought from Gordon…
I thought of something else I wanted to bounce off of you. Two things, actually, first a point of information. Are you aware that Ogier the Dane is one of the twelve Paladins of Charlemagne? It’s been thirty or forty years since I read Bullfinch, but I seem to remember some “Avalon” like adventure ascribed to him. Poul Anderson did at least one novel with Ogier the Dane as the lead character. Three Hearts and Three Lions, I think. (It’s also been thirty or forty years since I read that.)
Second, consider an off-the-wall possibility. When Ash calls “reset” is the moment she becomes “unreturned” and looses her mind. Everything after that is a hallucination. Bishop says he appeared because she wished for it, and indicates that special A was created out of her dreams. Wish fulfillment: her mind creates the thing “beyond the game” that she has wished for. It’s not too consistent, because Bishop and Stunner both actually appear before this, but it is typical of Oshii that you can see his plots in more than one way. I’m still having trouble understanding all that is there in the first Ghost in the Shell.
This is a very nice theory, and is one that really alters perspective on the film if it’s true, but is it true? Much as I like it, I suspect it is not true. My reason is that on the personal data for Ash (see commentary on Chapter 2 above) she already had 17 resets before this one. Of course, this might be adding more weight to the theory that Ash is already Unreturned, but it would mean the transition point is not within the film even though the boundaries do become more blurred after she calls ‘Reset’.